Register forum user name Search FAQ

Gammon Forum

Notice: Any messages purporting to come from this site telling you that your password has expired, or that you need to verify your details, confirm your email, resolve issues, making threats, or asking for money, are spam. We do not email users with any such messages. If you have lost your password you can obtain a new one by using the password reset link.

Due to spam on this forum, all posts now need moderator approval.

 Entire forum ➜ MUSHclient ➜ Suggestions ➜ Vista related changes needed?

Vista related changes needed?

It is now over 60 days since the last post. This thread is closed.     Refresh page


Pages: 1  2  3  4 5  

Posted by Seawolf   USA  (57 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #45 on Fri 24 Nov 2006 09:24 PM (UTC)

Amended on Fri 24 Nov 2006 09:25 PM (UTC) by Seawolf

Message
I can't see that happening. Nobody would buy a puter that did that unless they got a really damn good deal on it. Which, admittedly, could happen eventually, but I just don't see it anytime soon.

And if it does happen, I won't go for it, obviously. That would be lame.

Anyway, as long as you're comparing to spam (legit commercials don't count since it's the only way those TV stations really make money) you might as well mention that spyware does the same things and is already released. And for a long while, it wasn't illegal at all.

On-DVD ads are annoying, but at least they're kept short and relevant usually.
Top

Posted by Shadowfyr   USA  (1,791 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #46 on Fri 24 Nov 2006 09:35 PM (UTC)
Message
Quote:
Perhaps the solution is to make the public domain timespan much shorter. That's an interesting debate, but I'll not get into that now.


No, we need to "restore" the public domain timespan. The problem today isn't that its too long, its that it *doesn't exist at all* for some things. The #1 reason why most movies made prior to VHS are gone or will be is because they are a) not public domain, b) never will be, so long as some company can extend the license and we have the current "no registration required" copyright and c) they can claim that there "might" be some obscure future date where the product is still "viable" for them. At one time, you had to "tell" the courts and government that you still needed to keep the copyright and that "yes, this product is still a financially viable item I intend to maintain copyrights over", now you get that automatically and *must* inform the agencies involved that you "don't" want those protections. I.E., the presumption has shifted from one of, "public interest overrides copyright and that copyright must be limited", to, "copyright is perpetual and public interest is only relevant when/if the owner decides that they no longer have a "personal" interest in it." Someone could, presumably, create anything from a game to a book, sell a few thousand copies, then simply decide, "My own personal interest is in never seeing another copy ever sold and letting the existing ones vanish!", and not even the government, as the rules now stand, can step in to say its violating public interest to do so.

But, most of the time the same works that are currently vanishing are doing so for the same reason that companies forced the issue of copyright and demanded perpectual ones in the first place. They are too damn lazy to keep track of what they own, if its not making them "immediate" money, so instead of losing the copyright to public domain for failing to re-declare it, like the old days, they instead lose the product entirely, because they forget that its shoved in between the Christmas decorations from 1921 and the extra 5.25" floppies used for financial backups in 1983, right up until they find it in 2030 they (re)discover it and it is now little more than colored plastic with a bit of random magnetic material clued to the surface. And of course, the same thing is bound to happen with CDs and DVDs.

And, I also agree with Nick's assessment of the misuse of DRM to force you to watch commercials or something to use your computer... The simple fact is, while these companies may "want" to use them for the supposed reasons they claim, while completely failing to grasp why this is only going to hurt them, in an of itself, the real problem is that not everyone "in" those companies or the companies they sell them to have ethical quams about screwing their customers, and if a big and significant enough company does it, like MS, you don't have any real choice but to either a) give up on the technology almost entirely, b) use partial alternatives that are never "quite" as complete, do to the very tactics and deals that you got screwed with in the first place, or c) kiss their asses and tell them how happy you are to use their junk. DRM type technologies are "never" going to be used by the majority of those than employ them to do anything other than protect "themselves", at the expense of the technology, interoperability, the customer or anyone else that might sort of count more in the long run.
Top

Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #47 on Fri 24 Nov 2006 11:52 PM (UTC)
Message
Quote:
If DRM is incorporated into PCs, so that only authorised software can run, I have lost control of it.
I agree, that would be horrible. But I think that's a very, very different kind of DRM than the copy protection on games and so forth. I think this debate is very complex because there are so many facets to DRM. Some forms of DRM are fairly tame and so far I've not seen an argument against them beyond "it's inconvenient" (and, well, yes, it is inconvenient).

As for the public domain issue, Shadowfyr, I don't think you have quite understood the issue. Yes, it's true that the US government has been extending copyright in a way that it shouldn't be for certain products (e.g. Mickey Mouse). It's much more complicated than you say. It's not "at some future time" etc. that Mickey Mouse would be viable, it's right now. Now I don't like it either, but if you're going to argue against it you should argue against it correctly.

Besides, the public domain delay still exists and is still applied. There have just been a few high profile cases where it wasn't (e.g. the early Mickey Mouse) and I think you're exaggerating those.

But even in the Mickey Mouse case, they've been working on it and extending it ever since. It's not as if all they've been doing is milking the same old stuff for money for 70 years. Given the continued work and effort they've put into it, is it really fair for it to be suddenly taken away from them? I'm not sure either way, but I think it's just far more complicated than you are making it seem.

David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
Top

Posted by Shadowfyr   USA  (1,791 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #48 on Sat 25 Nov 2006 07:55 PM (UTC)
Message
Quote:
As for the public domain issue, Shadowfyr, I don't think you have quite understood the issue.


Umm. No.. I am **not** talking about things like Mickey Mouse. While imho, they should need to re-register copyright for some works, its also a trademark and has other protections. No, I mean things like films made in the 1920-30s, which some company some place "owns" the story rights to, so it can't even be remade, but where the "original" is literally rotting out of existence. And often, even when the companies are both aware of the problem, their first reaction when someone asks about one of them is, "Ah ha! More money!", even if the person asking is a non-profit, the work itself hasn't been shown or sold in 70+ years and their is no one in their right mind that is going to buy rights to it for $200,000 or some such number, just so they can restore it and place it in public domain. Put simply, the people that are trying to protect those works don't have the money to do so, the companies that own them don't care, until someone specifically asks if they still have it and due to the nature of modern copyright, where its automatic, without need to renew, there is no overriding agency or interest "forcing" them to save those works from extinction or release any of them to the public, even to have the "story" be re-used to make a completely different work. Mickey Mouse is hardly going to vanish tomorrow if a non-profit doesn't spend $200 thousand to "save" any of the movies he is in. Nor is he going to land in the public domain, so long as he remains trademark, not just copyright material.

I would love to see companies *required* to show an active interest in what they have, or lose it, like it used to work. I don't care at all if some company that "does" have an active interest in something wants to keep it to themselves. Though, I might, if I where the one making the law, include a clause stating that "active interest" had to extend to "using" the character or material in some tangible fashion, not just locking it in a vault and telling people, "My only interest is keeping people from seeing it!"

Sorry, but Disney and Mickey Mouse have nothing to do with the disaster I am referring to.
Top

Posted by Seawolf   USA  (57 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #49 on Sat 25 Nov 2006 08:15 PM (UTC)

Amended on Sat 25 Nov 2006 08:16 PM (UTC) by Seawolf

Message
There's nothing made before twenty years ago that I give a crap about, so I can't say I sympathise. As far as content, usually ten. So I really can't say I care.

But I say the owner reserves the right to choose what he wants to do with it. If I created something 50 years ago, and I don't want it shown for some reason, I should have that right. Same if I didn't create it, but own the rights legally. It's my call. That's the end of that. It's sure to annoy someone, but until that someone gives me a good reason to release it, I doubt I will.

Do you really expect companies to behave differently? All it would do for them is cheap publicity. It'd be a mostly pointless gesture of goodwill that ended with very few people remembering or caring. So one person wants it released. Or a few people. What will it gain for them? Nothing. In the case of software, probably more than a few nitwits asking for tech support on an app they stopped supporting ten years ago.

All companies play the effort vs reward game, unless they really don't care about making money.
Top

Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #50 on Sun 26 Nov 2006 03:55 AM (UTC)
Message
Quote:
(Seawolf) What will it gain for them? Nothing.
In fact it'll probably cost something. It might not be incredibly expensive, but it certainly isn't cheap to transfer the old formats to newer formats that people will actually be able to use. Maybe somebody is willing to volunteer the time to convert the original. OK, well, who then? Who decides who gets it? The company owning the material, most likely. But that puts us back in square one. The company has to go through this bother, which they don't want to because it doesn't get them anything.

Should it be a government agency? OK, well, fine; are you willing to spend your taxes on that? That's not an altogether unreasonable proposition, I find, but I'm not sure how many people here in the US would share that point of view. After all, if it's something nobody is really going to the trouble of preserving in the first place, you'd have to be fairly devoted to the idea of preserving culture for posterity to be willing to spend tax money on something you don't really care about in the first place.

Quote:
(Shadowfyr) the nature of modern copyright, where its automatic, without need to renew
The copyright law you've read about must not be the same one that I have. Copyright is automatic and always has been; as soon as you create a work your copyright is placed on it automatically unless you say so. Copyright expires after a certain amount of time, except in the cases recently where the government has stepped in and retroactively extended copyright periods.

David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
Top

Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #51 on Sun 26 Nov 2006 04:01 AM (UTC)
Message
Quote:
While imho, they should need to re-register copyright for some works, its also a trademark and has other protections.
Oh, by the way, the public domain laws override things like trademarks. It doesn't matter if you have trademarks etc. The law it complex but basically the work is under the authors' copyright for life plus 75, or, in the case of a corporation, 95 years from the point of authorship. The Mickey Mouse case prompted that change in law; it used to be 50 years. So, really, the law is not what you made it out to be.

This page explains the public domain law change fairly well, and in a quick and simple way, I think:
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20020305_sprigman.html

David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
Top

Posted by Shadowfyr   USA  (1,791 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #52 on Sun 26 Nov 2006 10:01 PM (UTC)
Message
Quote:
Copyright is automatic and always has been


No, it hasn't "always" been that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_copyright_law

"The U.S. Congress first exercised its power to enact copyright legislation with the Copyright Act of 1790. The Act secured an author the exclusive right to publish and vend "maps, charts and books" for a term of 14 years, with the right of renewal for one additional 14 year term if the author was still alive. The act did not regulate other kinds of writings, such as musical compositions or newspapers and specifically noted that it did not prohibit copying the works of foreign authors. The vast majority of writings were never registered — between 1790 and 1799, of 13,000 titles published in the United States, only 556 were registered."

People being too fracking lazy to follow the law, eventually pressured the government to change copyright law. In ***1992*** they abolished the renewal requirement, making copyright perpetual and derailing the system that would have otherwise allowed works to enter the public domain. You don't know what you are talking about if you think this is how its "always" been. There was no need for them to abolish renewal requirements, just so that Disney wouldn't lose Mickey Mouse. They could have adjusted it, so that it included something like X years since the "last work" by the same company that was a direct dirivative of the prior work, or something sane. Instead they threw up their hands, went, "Who cares about some crap from 50 years ago that people don't watch, lets protect the mouse forever."

Sure, there is some "supposed" standard saying that some point in time exists when it "might" go public, but the truth is, without renewal requirements there is both a) no certainty of that for the owners and b) no guarrentee that they won't decide to extend it to 100, or 200, or 500 years some place down the line and tell everyone "screw you!".

As for old works. You're not thinking when you say that. The movies produced in the 1920 are the block busters of "today". Its certainly harder for "every" copy of a modern movie to be lost, but not impossible, especially if its under defacto perpetual copyright and 100 years from now the only copy is sitting on the shelf of Megacentury Pictures, who bought up who ever currently owns it and dumped everything they didn't really want in the basement. Hell, just in the case of books, which where written in my life time, there is no certainty that about 5% of the ones I own will "ever" be republished, "are" in the library of congress or any place else that would prolong them and will almost certainly in many cases cease to exist once the author is dead and the copies in private collections are eventually lost to time. Are those "irrelevant" too?

I can understand that you don't care about things you haven't seen and probably don't want to, but its short sighted and stupid. You might as well, with that attitude, be advocating something like the burning of the library in Alexandria in ancient times. But not to destroy the works, so much as because you don't care if they are lost or if anyone has a copy of them. We have produced more books and other things in the last two centuries than in the prior 2,000 years. Probably only 10% of those 2,000 years worth of works still exist. Think of all the movies you have ever seen, then pick 1 out of every ten *you* think should be saved, reminding you that history isn't going to care about which ones "you" want saved and half of those you pick might instead vanish, with the *worst* ones you ever saw in their place.

That is the world as it *was*. In 1790 they tried to both "protect" the interest of the artist *and* make sure they survived by "forcing" them into the public domain. Now.. The "ownership" outlives the artist and the media its on, depending on when it was produced **might** live anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 of a human life span. That "still" means that maybe 50% of everything we have ever seen in our lives "might not" exist by the time we are in our 90s. The fact that its only half, not 90%, or 99% is better how, especially if copyright keeps being dragged out and public domain keeps becoming more and more of a total joke?

Oh, and to be clear.. You "could" makes something "based" from the prior work, more or less, but that won't stop some ass digging through the basement finding the script for something from 1925 and deciding to sue you for failing to pay some sort of royalties on the original. Its a complete mess and the only difference between people like David Brin, who shrug their shoulders and go, "Well, guess they copied another of my ideas.", when refering to the movie "The Core" (very similar to his book "Earth") and Hollywood is that big picture companies are not going to shrug their shoulders, they are going to go after you with attack dogs. Kind of makes derived works, even accidental ones, scary prospects...
Top

Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #53 on Sun 26 Nov 2006 10:45 PM (UTC)
Message
Umm, Shadowfyr. Before going off on tirades like that, read what I write. :-) Almost nothing you said has much of anything to do with what I said. I said that copyright is automatically placed on your works unless you explicitly say you put it into the public domain. I also said that there was an expiry time. I'm not quite sure how what you posted contradicts what I said.

As for old works, I'm assuming you're not responding to me because the point you address isn't the point I made. But come to think of it, in particular you didn't address the point I made, which is how to implement in practice the solution to your problems. Enough hand-waving and complaining about problems, let's get down to practical solutions.

Anyhoo, this debate is getting a little too dragged out. Unless we can talk about practical solutions I think I shall retire and get cracking on all the work that's been piling up in front of me for class and the classes I'm teaching.

David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
Top

Posted by Seawolf   USA  (57 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #54 on Mon 27 Nov 2006 01:01 AM (UTC)
Message
Fairly sure he meant me on the not caring bit. Why would I be advocating destruction by not caring? Is that like advocating having children by not having sex? Because that doesn't make sense either.

There is precious little in the material world that I do care about. So man, if that somehow makes me an advocate of Satan or something, well so be it. I'm sure I'll feel all bad about it while I don't care.

If there was a nuclear apocalypse, and I was one of the last five people on Earth, and the others were trying to hunt me down, I doubt I'd care then either.

If that makes me shortsighted and stupid, so be it. I tried caring once, and it really didn't get me anywhere.

On an awesome note, I finally got my legal copy of Vista installed, and it's great.
Top

Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #55 on Mon 27 Nov 2006 01:46 AM (UTC)
Message
Perhaps relevant to this discussion, apparently the UK parliament has just recently refused to extend copyrights, meaning that copyrights will expire after 50 years instead of the proposed extension to 95. Sounds good to me. If only the US would do the same... except now they'd have to pass a law that canceled the extension they've already put in place.

David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
Top

Posted by Seawolf   USA  (57 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #56 on Mon 27 Nov 2006 03:09 AM (UTC)
Message
Either way without people really fighting for change, things won't improve. There are a few consumer champion groups, but IMO they don't have nearly enough people to get anything done...and sometimes what they do just seems silly, as it helps criminals a lot more than other people.

So you know, as they say, put up or shut up. Whining about things won't change it.
Top

Posted by Norbert   USA  (61 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #57 on Mon 27 Nov 2006 10:49 AM (UTC)
Message
So are there any changes to mushclient needed to accommodate Vista? I'm looking at buying a new laptop, and by the time I get one it'll probably come with Vista.

Norbert

-Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked... in the head... with an iron boot?
Of course you don't, no one does. It never happens
It's a dumb question... skip it.
Top

Posted by Seawolf   USA  (57 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #58 on Mon 27 Nov 2006 04:14 PM (UTC)
Message
They're not necessarily needed, it still runs. Just a few annoyances that I hope Nick will clear up before February.
Top

Posted by Shadowfyr   USA  (1,791 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #59 on Mon 27 Nov 2006 06:36 PM (UTC)
Message
The point of my tirade, as you put it, is that there may be an "illusion" of some sort of point where the copyright is no longer valid and the work enters the public domain, but from a purely practical position, that is either set so far into the future that the original work can't be "expected" to still exist in many cases or it keeps being extended universally, instead of providing more specific extensions based on "if" the owner still uses it as a viable commodity. In either case, for all practical purposes, works can't enter the public domain, since they either cease to exist before that happens or the copyright is dragged on and on, with no end in sight.

Its the flip side of the problem with patent law, where in that case the problem isn't, "It will go on forever", but just, "We don't have the time or resources to make sure everything *is* unique and nontrivial, so nearly everything gets an approval stamp anyway." Both sides of the equation are getting to be quite screwed up and its the public interest that is getting kicked in the shins from it.

And I did suggest a solution. Adjust copyright so that companies have to show a viable level of interest in a work to "get" any extension, not just drop it on a shelf and hope someone else comes along that wants to buy rights to it.
Top

The dates and times for posts above are shown in Universal Co-ordinated Time (UTC).

To show them in your local time you can join the forum, and then set the 'time correction' field in your profile to the number of hours difference between your location and UTC time.


179,892 views.

This is page 4, subject is 5 pages long:  [Previous page]  1  2  3  4 5  [Next page]

It is now over 60 days since the last post. This thread is closed.     Refresh page

Go to topic:           Search the forum


[Go to top] top

Information and images on this site are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Australia License unless stated otherwise.