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 Entire forum ➜ MUSHclient ➜ Suggestions ➜ Frames to world window
Frames to world window

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Posted by Shaun Biggs   USA  (644 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #15 on Thu 16 Aug 2007 07:21 PM (UTC)
Message
Quote:
Well Nick, I am more enthusiastic about the side one, If for no other reason than that its might be useful for displaying static stuff, not chat, or other things that need to be the same "width" as the mud text.

I do this already with a dummy world on the side. The only annoyance with that is that if I have everything sized correctly, then the infobar pop up, the main window gets scroll bars because the world windows no longer fit. This isn't so bad, but they don't go away once the infobar is removed, and the scrollbars do wind up covering the command line, among other things.

Either way this is implemented, having a dummy world can dupe the other solution just fine.
It is much easier to fight for one's ideals than to live up to them.
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Posted by Guest1   USA  (256 posts)
Date Reply #16 on Thu 16 Aug 2007 10:40 PM (UTC)
Message
"Well I was waiting to see how much enthusiasm there was for it. Ten days elapsed without any comment, after I said it was possible. This sort of thing takes quite a bit of work - there is the code needed to actually put the text in the third window, resizing it, having an option to see it or not, handling clicking in it, and so on."

Heck I've been wishing for this for years, and posted requests every couple of years just to see if it was possible at the time :) I've tried the suggested world window method but occasionally it spat the dummy, not to mention the command line pain, so for now am using notepad windows again.

As far as placement, for sure I'd far prefer the sidebar as opposed to inline.. the upper window would be good for capturing tells etc otherwise missed in spam, but for me the main attraction was using a sidebar for color-coded status checks of effects and spells that I have up, and similar things like timer warnings when certain effects are about to drop, targets, grouping status and so on, which all require more of a list format, thus long but narrow as a sidebar would provide..

I think I mentioned once before that one of our mud's coders wrote a client called wintin which has dockable colored windows (example at http://wintin.org/Portals/0/screen1.JPG ), which is just the sort of effect I've tried to emulate with MC. The source code is also available at wintin.org in the downloads section if that is of any interest.

Anyway this is my expression of extreme interest.

Cheers.
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Posted by Shadowfyr   USA  (1,790 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #17 on Sat 18 Aug 2007 01:20 AM (UTC)
Message
Lets put it this way... To use an example of why I don't think dummies are as useful, lets use the behavior of two Usenet clients as examples. One, Gravity, has splits. Top split is the "groups" on the server, the second is the list of messages in the currently viewed group and the last one is the message being looked at. The other XNews **looks** like the same basic client, but it uses standard MDI. You have two options, tiled, or stacked. But, tiled only repositions *open* windows, it doesn't resize them automatically if you change to a new message, it leave the first message tiled, then slap the next on over top of the other windows you **wanted** to also be visible.

In other words, the more things you do, the less usable the client becomes, because of all the fracking extra groups, message lists *and* messages piled on top of each other. I see the way Mushclient currently has for doing some things like this. You can't get rid of the input bar, so you lose some screen space there, then to add more fun, the more windows you need, the more complicated things get. If even "some" of those windows where splits, and thus tied to the main world, then it becomes far easier to adjust the few dummies you need (if you even need any at all), while making sure that the information that is **supposed** to appear along with the mud text *is* visible when its world is visible. Its not terribly practical to do that with a mess of dummy worlds.

The only thing that would be better would be what I have talked about for years, but which is **far** less accessible, given how absurdly complicated doing it has proved to be. And even in that case, the only benefit would be letting some script handle repositioning the windows as needed, since you could react to when things happened to them easier. Its still less complicated to have the client deal with most of it, even if it was implementable at this point.
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Posted by Onoitsu2   USA  (248 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #18 on Sat 18 Aug 2007 09:12 AM (UTC)

Amended on Sat 18 Aug 2007 09:15 AM (UTC) by Onoitsu2

Message
If frames were needing to be voted on I would be voting YES all the way, but would prefer the side panel method, or if possible the option to choose which method. As stated by someone else having it to the side as a status window of sorts is the most likely reason for wanting the split, so that it functions like several other clients out there, zMud can do something similar, as well as one I previously mentioned, but for the life of me cannot remember the name of at the moment.

I, myself on Aardwolf have 3 windows open, the main, which takes up left 3/4 of screen, the map which takes up top 1/3 of remaining area, and the channel split which takes up the remaining area. This setup works quite well for me, as if I miss something in battle spam I can catch it in the side window. The map is split and omitted from the main window to cut down on spam, and allow me to update it on the fly as well, as I have a keypad button set for this.

If the frames were to be implemented I would use it for spells and the like, or status, or a report section of some kind. Would still need the dummy worlds, unless multiple splits were able to be implemented, and the only foreseeable method that that would work is a class inheritance type of situation, but then we run into the problem that has plagued people for some time, and that is how to toggle "Design Mode at Runtime" to allow placement of any movable controls.

Ok I know I went on and on here, but to sum it all up frames in general would rock, in either top or side positioning.

Also as Demonsurfer stated about wintin, the source has references to a "Magic Library" that is C# (C-Sharp) which is a .NET thing, which should be avoided like the plague.

Laterzzz,
Onoitsu2
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Posted by Shadowfyr   USA  (1,790 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #19 on Sat 18 Aug 2007 05:51 PM (UTC)
Message
Actually, looking into it as I have, the "design mode at runtime" issue isn't resolvable, not by simply "setting" a design mode flag. Why? MS' own design mode controls are made so that they **cannot** be created in that state, unless you have one of their compilers installed. Basically, it would work on the test platform the application was created on, if you could get it to work at all, but not anyplace else. Also, regular windows may not *have* a "mode" setting, since its not something standard, unless its also a MS control, created in the same environment that the design time controls from MS work in.

The only real solution is to implement something in the container (frame, etc.) that acts like the original "mode" feature. You then set up something that will either hide, or disable user input, for the control to be moved. Once its dead to user input you stick some boxes around it, for the size box and drag handles, let the user move "those" around, then, when done, move and resize the control to "fit" the new location of those boxes, before making it active/visible again. The trick is, if you want to see what it looks like as you move it, that instead of making a single bit of generic code to draw a fake box and handles, then moving that, you have to implement the code for them in *every* control, then use something like the UIDead function and a redirection of the draw code in the control, to make it work. There is an example some place I saw of making this "faked" system in VB, but I ignored it at the time, since it wasn't what I was trying to get working.

Personally I always thought this was a kludge, since there was already code implemented to handle this with most installed activex controls. But, due to the stupid, "You must have a license for Visual Studio installed on your machine to create design time controls in your application.", BS, its pretty much the only way it can be done. And, I suspect now that its basically exactly what the code in all those activeX controls does, with one extra bloody check to see if the license is installed, if you try to "create" one of them while *in* design mode. Actually setting the mode, as long as its not "also" an activeX, would probably be as simple as replicating the mode flag and what ever event gets fired to announce to hosted controls that it changed. But, I am not sure it simply temporarily switching the container to "runtime" creating the control, then switching the container to "design" gets around the bloody license or not. And, you **definitely** don't want to use activeX or other prebuilt MS controls that already have the flag. Its buried in some idiotic hidden attribute mess, which takes a crowbar and a voodoo ritual to change modes. lol
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,133 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #20 on Sat 18 Aug 2007 10:47 PM (UTC)
Message
So far we seem to have some votes for the side panel, which would be more useful (it seems to me) for stuff like status information (eg. a list of fairly short flags, and whether they are on or off), and some votes for the wide panel, which would be more useful for stuff like keeping chats in (where you want the same width as the original window).
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Isthiriel   (113 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #21 on Sun 19 Aug 2007 08:40 AM (UTC)
Message
Just to be difficult, I vote for both.

So I can keep inventory to one side and chats/combat info along the top. :D
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Posted by Shaun Biggs   USA  (644 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #22 on Sun 19 Aug 2007 09:30 AM (UTC)
Message
The only thing that turns me off of the sidebar is not being able to resize that little box on the bottom separate from the command line. I could toss the map down there like Onoitsu does. Perhaps some potion info. Actually, it still sounds more and more usable as I think about it. Side bar for me now :p
It is much easier to fight for one's ideals than to live up to them.
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Posted by Worstje   Netherlands  (899 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #23 on Sun 19 Aug 2007 09:53 AM (UTC)
Message
I'm voting BOTH, too.

Oh, and to be difficult like the others... how'd these frames be used? Would (Colour)?(Tell|Note), Hyperlink and such be useful with them?
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Posted by Shaun Biggs   USA  (644 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #24 on Sun 19 Aug 2007 10:02 AM (UTC)
Message
I would hope they would have hyperlink functionality just like the main window. It would be nice to have a clickable list of levelling or quest areas. I'm pretty sure that some type of colour system would be in place. Even the Infobar has that.
It is much easier to fight for one's ideals than to live up to them.
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Posted by Worstje   Netherlands  (899 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #25 on Sun 19 Aug 2007 10:36 AM (UTC)
Message
Just saying I'd prefer it to be the same kind of system. I personally despise the InfoBar aliases, because although they may be flexible, they don't rub me right. To make a somewhat simple InfoBar, you need a -ton- of commands, which makes it relatively slow each time you need to update it. But well... I shouldn't get carried away with things that are so far away still.
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,133 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #26 on Sun 19 Aug 2007 10:10 PM (UTC)

Amended on Sun 19 Aug 2007 10:21 PM (UTC) by Nick Gammon

Message
Both, huh? Do you envisage it looking like this:

Style 1

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|                                                              |            |
|                   Frame 1                                    |  Frame 2   |
|                                                              |            |
|                                                              |            |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|                                                                           |
|                                                                           |
|                   Output window                                           |
|                                                                           |
|                                                                           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|                   Command window                                          |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|


Or like this:

Style 2

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|                                                               |           |
|                   Frame 1                                     |           |
|                                                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|           |
|                                                               |  Frame 2  |
|                                                               |           |
|                   Output window                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|                   Command window                                          |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|


Or even:


Style 3

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|                                                               |           |
|                   Frame 1                                     |           |
|                                                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|           |
|                                                               |  Frame 2  |
|                                                               |           |
|                   Output window                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|           |
|                   Command window                              |           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|


Or, maybe:

Style 4

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|                                                               |           |
|                   Output window                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|           |
|                                                               |  Frame 2  |
|                                                               |           |
|                   Frame 1                                     |           |
|                                                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|           |
|                   Command window                              |           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|


Or even again:

Style 5

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|                   Command window                              |           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|           |
|                                                               |           |
|                   Output window                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|           |
|                                                               |  Frame 2  |
|                                                               |           |
|                   Frame 1                                     |           |
|                                                               |           |
|                                                               |           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|


Ach, I think my brain just exploded.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,133 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #27 on Sun 19 Aug 2007 10:15 PM (UTC)
Message
You would at least have some sort of colour system. I can't see how it could be written to without scripting, as it is probably something that is hard to automate with a "send to sidebar" in a trigger.

You would probably need something like this:


SendToFrame (1, "foreground", "background", "text") -- write in colour
ClearFrame (1) -- empty it
DeleteFrameLines (1, 20, 40) -- delete some lines


Would you want scrollbars? Horizontal? Vertical? And before you say "give me the lot", remember that scroll bars themselves take up room, and can look ugly.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Guest1   USA  (256 posts)
Date Reply #28 on Sun 19 Aug 2007 10:37 PM (UTC)
Message
I'd call style 3 my first choice, providing frame 1 above was resizable in vertical dimension. Style 4 would be second choice.

In both the above cases, vertical scroll bars definitely for frame 1 and the output window of course, but not horizontal.

Frame 2 (sidebar) could be ok without any scroll bars imho, providing we could set the width dimension ourselves. Maybe vertical scroll bars, but could they only appear if required if possible, meaning that they don't take up realestate when they aren't being used?

Perhaps existing color send/tell code would seem the logical choice since we already use that format, providing a change in color doesn't force a new line. SendToFrame1 also sounds good - something similar to the existing Send/AppendtoNotepad function, again for familiarity.

Thanks very much for considering this Nick.
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Posted by Shaun Biggs   USA  (644 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #29 on Sun 19 Aug 2007 10:55 PM (UTC)
Message
I like #3 out of those choices as well. I agree with pretty much everything Demonsurfer said, except that I think the two frames should have scrollbars on the short side.
It is much easier to fight for one's ideals than to live up to them.
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