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 Entire forum ➜ MUSHclient ➜ Suggestions ➜ MC Minimize to Tray option
MC Minimize to Tray option

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Posted by Shadowfyr   USA  (1,792 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #15 on Mon 15 Mar 2004 09:28 PM (UTC)
Message
Just one point to think about.. If Explorer crashes, or more rarely someone intentially shuts it down to force a Registry update, then most icons in the task tray die. The programs themselves continue to run, but are inaccessable from the tray. This happened to me often enough when I had a flacky video card on this system that I dropped a copy of the internet connection thingy into the other program tray, so if I lost my blinking connection icon, I could use the other program to disconnect. This is much less of an issue with Mushclient, but it does tend to be annoying. I have no idea how or if you can make sure it stays in there if Explorer goes down. Only 2-3 of the 14 tasks I have running seem to restore themselves if their icon is lost. You may take a look around to see if there is some info about how to avoid this.

However, since you can always alt-tab to get back to Mushclient, this is a lot less critical than if is was something like Display Settings, your virus scanned, volume controls, PGP or even the dang internet connection icon. When one of those goes AWOL, it can be quite a major pain.
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Posted by Poromenos   Greece  (1,037 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #16 on Mon 15 Mar 2004 10:20 PM (UTC)
Message
You can refresh the icon every minute or so, that'll make sure it's always in the tray...
Vidi, Vici, Veni.
http://porocrom.poromenos.org/ Read it!
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Posted by Ashlan   Australia  (8 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #17 on Wed 17 Mar 2004 11:06 PM (UTC)

Amended on Wed 17 Mar 2004 11:10 PM (UTC) by Ashlan

Message
Hm, << GREAT >> to see this idea rolling out at last, this one will get a huge thumbs up from everyone.

Nick, LOVE the idea of a <mumble>-click (left/right? i suppose you could make that an option like ICQ does for it's users) menu to display unread lines of text, don't let that one die.

Something else to maybe consider while your mapping the idea out is a 'floating' MC icon... although personally these don't toast my bread. Just something to think about, while you're on this theme, that users may bring up later and you'll thnk, 'Gees should have done that while doing that other thing...'

p.s. _being_ a 'coughBOSScough', i have to laugh - i've been waiting for this opt. in MC for ages as well, so the staff stop asking 'what the hell is that you're doing?'. <<laugh>>

Tnx Nick:) Regards Ashlan
@AshNathens
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Posted by Ashlan   Australia  (8 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #18 on Thu 18 Mar 2004 12:05 AM (UTC)
Message
This will probably cause a lot of retribution amongst users, but it is something i have always wondered about. So, simply for Nick's interest...

I have never understood, but always admired, the reason behind offering such a great program fully capable without registration. Simplemu*, for example, offers an unlimited trial version of their client with only 'limited capabilities', which is great. If you like it, you register, you aquire a bit more bling-bling. When i found MC, i registered it because it's great, by far superior to any other i could find, and i had the spare dollars; so i hope they bought you a cold beer somewhere a long the line way back when i registered:) <cheers>

Now, an option like this one, which i imagine the majority of users will have been waiting for, would be ideal as an 'added capability after registration'. Before you all start hollering, have a think about the work that goes into providing us with a great piece of software. This, 'skins', transparancy - why not encourage a few more people to hit the coffers with some copper when it comes to these program cosmetics?

I'm a big advocate of encouraging people to register MC when i point them to it. I'll be interested to see if anyone agrees with my stance on supporting good software - i mean, i'd have taken it for free, but i could smell nick's blood and sweat on the thing when i downloaded it.... hee.
@AshNathens
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Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #19 on Thu 18 Mar 2004 01:15 AM (UTC)
Message
I also would think this kind of "cosmetics" feature (or, even the scripting array) could be a "registered version only" feature.

I believe the reasoning is mainly that it's hard to really evaluate a client unless you can actually see all of its features. Otherwise you're "in the dark" and just trusting the developer that they're telling the truth about the registered version being better.
That being said, I always have thought that Nick gives away a bit too much. :-)
David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
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Posted by Ashlan   Australia  (8 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #20 on Thu 18 Mar 2004 01:36 AM (UTC)
Message
Yeah - it's a fine line i hadn't thought of - and NOW i remember why i never registered simplemu* - good point Ksilyan.

So, what do you do? I mean, it's reputation precedes it - most game hp's i've browsed even promote MC by name, so, maybe that's enough to surpass trust issues. I am sure nick could muster up the odd testimonial. And, i mean, take away the cosmetics like skins and you have a fully operational client anyway. Skins is like the cyber technologies version of McDonalds, 'Would you like fries with that?' - i mean, if I wanted fries, i would have f*ing asked, wouldn't I? People will *BUY* the client for the extras if they are that way inclined. You know, i registered already, and i had the choice not to. If I was the sort of persn who didn't care about registering software, but I had to register to get a few skins on my client, i probably wouldn't, because skins don't really flip my pancakes. But, say, 30% of people might, so nick wins a few more dollars than he is right now.

Then, where's the line? You need to register simplemu* to really USE triggers (eg) and a few other more BASIC things ( i forget what) - that's too limited a trial basis. I couldn't really USE the program extensively, test it's capabilities, to get a feel for it. So, i passed on it. i'm not saying nick should go that far, but hey, it's his wallet:)

I'm REALLY interested to know what nick has to say!
@AshNathens
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,173 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #21 on Thu 18 Mar 2004 02:16 AM (UTC)

Amended on Thu 18 Mar 2004 02:19 AM (UTC) by Nick Gammon

Message
Quote:

_being_ a 'coughBOSScough', i have to laugh - i've been waiting for this opt. in MC for ages as well, so the staff stop asking 'what the hell is that you're doing?'. <<laugh>>


That's quite funny. I hadn't thought that it would be the *boss* that was using MUSHclient and trying to keep it quiet from his staff. Good one. Maybe we should rename the "boss key" the "staff key". ;)

Registration

As for the registration issue, my first point is that I think it is hard when programs offer "limited" features before you register. For example, a database might allow 100 records before you register, then you register and find out why - it runs like a dog when you put 1000 records into it.

MUSHclient already does that in a small way - the spell checker cuts out after reporting a smallish number of spelling errors (10, I think). That way you know it works, but can't keep using it without registering.

I think the problem is that by making more and more features "registration only" you may push people to register, however you may just push them to find the crack site that lets you use it for nothing. I am reluctant to mention that such places exist, however searching for "MUSHclient" in Google returns lots of hits these days, which I am pleased about, but in about the first or second page it takes you to a crack site.

Warning

Just in case you are tempted, I want to make a serious warning here. A lot of cracks involve running some sort of "decracking" program that allegedly removes the copy protection, or nag screen, from lots of software. Now it probably does do that. However you ask yourself, what else does it do? Is this how the vast number of Internet worms are propagating (apart from people opening email attachments)?

Think about it. If you run a "crack MUSHclient" program you are already doing something that is technically illegal - subverting the nag screen and altering the program in an unauthorised way. So, if the "crack" software also installs a backdoor onto your computer you are not in a good position to go and complain. It would be like a burglar trying to get his stolen TV fixed under warranty.

What to do?

I like the idea of having the program being well-regarded and openly available. As you know, the evaluation period never expires, so you can evaluate as long as you want. However I am going to be motivated to keep adding improvements only if people pay, at least some of them.

To be honest, I think around 1% of downloaded copies are paid for, so I think the way of fixing that - assuming it needs fixing - is to simply get more publicity, so that it is 1% of a greater user base.

If you can do so, and haven't already, I would appreciate a mention on the web page for your MUD, at least alongside the other clients. A year ago certain competing clients got mentioned on practically every MUD web site, but MUSHclient rarely. Maybe mention words like "free evaluation", "very reliable", "actively supported" and so on.

Spread the word around, and MUSHclient will continue to provide good fun for playing MUDs for many years. :)


- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Ashlan   Australia  (8 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #22 on Thu 18 Mar 2004 02:40 AM (UTC)
Message
Hee, yes well, i'm running a hotel - the reception staff are hardly going to have time to be on a mu*, and let's be honest, the majority of mu*ers are old blood these days. That's my big goal on mu* - promote them as social, colourful, choose your own adventure type chat programs. If people contact me on icq/msn blah blah i tell them, 'hey, download this client from here, come have a look, that's where i'm at'. The programs are smaller, more stable, banner free, no gimmicks, porn pop up free <ICQ!> - why not mu*?

1% ??? That's it? Well, nick, all i an say is, a BIG thanks:)
@AshNathens
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Posted by Poromenos   Greece  (1,037 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #23 on Thu 18 Mar 2004 06:41 AM (UTC)
Message
About registration, whenever I try to "convert" someone from zMud, the first question they ask is if MUClient is free. They have probably already paid for zMud and they don't want to have to pay again to use a client they might not like. Right now, I say "yeah, it just has a small delay in the beginning, but you can use it as long as you want", and they are happy. If i said "yeah, but you can't use half the features", I don't think anyone would try MUClient even with my bashing zMud all the time :p So this way, you attract more user who will start using MUClient and eventually register it.
Vidi, Vici, Veni.
http://porocrom.poromenos.org/ Read it!
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Posted by Linda   Sweden  (164 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #24 on Thu 18 Mar 2004 01:22 PM (UTC)
Message
I don't play any MUDs, so I don't know how popular MUSHclient is with that half of the playerbase, but when it comes to promoting MUSHclient to MUSHers, I do find that on the whole most new players select SimpleMU instead (after being recommended both clients) and that few who have used SimpleMU are interested in switching to MUSHclient.

My impression is that the spawned windows is one feature that often wins people over to SimpleMU, despite the fact that it actually has some features crippled in the evaluation version. I also think people might like the fact that the worlds toolbar seems to be for a theoretically unlimited number of worlds; rather than using a limited number of pre-made buttons, it uses tabs generated on the fly. Currently, however, new activity isn't indicated on the tabs, but this should be doable. I use a text editor called EditPlus where a red asterix is added to the tabs for files with new, unsaved information, for example.

On the whole, I do think that to some degree the fact that SimpleMU is preferred by many MUSHers comes down to the approach of not putting certain features into the client because they can be more or less solved with scripting (although the spawned windows can't be adequately handled, given that notepad is size-limited and does not offer a separate input window, and not tabs either of course). It may have lead to the client being perceived primarily as a MUD client rather than a client that is as useful for all coderbases.

Personally, I still think that MUSHclient is the more complete package, but that even so there are some really tempting features in SimpleMU, and for a lot of MUSHers those seem to win out.
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,173 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #25 on Thu 18 Mar 2004 08:19 PM (UTC)
Message
Linda, thanks for those comments.

Perhaps if there is a "killer feature" that is the one thing that stops people registering, even if it is available indirectly via scripting, that I should look at adding in as built-in one.

Things like "minimise to tray" I think are just cosmetic, but perhaps the two you mention, a better list of open worlds and spawned windows, might be sensibly added.

I'll have to look into that. :)

As most people here know I try to resist bloating the program with lots of features just for the sake of adding features, and I note that the SimpleMU download is about twice the size of MUSHclient's, but maybe a couple more things like that are not really bloat.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,173 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #26 on Thu 18 Mar 2004 09:26 PM (UTC)
Message
Linda, I know you requested this "spawned windows" idea late last year. Can you outline a bit more how this works?


  1. Is it like the notepad windows where you choose some sort of text (eg. a regular expression) which makes the matching lines go to the other window?

  2. What are the major differences between spawned windows and the current technique you can use in MUSHclient (ie. "send to notepad")? Is it colours?

  3. Would the spawned windows just be extra windows sitting around which you can bring to the front and view if you feel like it?

  4. Do you expect to select text from them, save them, log them etc.?
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Linda   Sweden  (164 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #27 on Thu 18 Mar 2004 10:30 PM (UTC)
Message
It is certainly true that MUSHclient is a much sleeker download. Although, I get the impression that this is becoming less and less important to a lot of people. Not saying it isn't a good thing to keep it small, because it is, but I think a lot of people aren't too bothered by a size increase.

However, if a size increase also means a noticeably larger memory footprint, then yes, a lot more people do care. And I know that a few years ago, SimpleMU was much more of a memory hog than MUSHclient. But from what I have heard from users of the last versions, it has been extensively recoded and I haven't heard any complaints about the memory usage lately.

As for the spawned windows, lets see how well I can explain it after testing SimpleMU briefly earlier today.

1) More or less, yes. You setup a spawn on say <Public> *, and the first time it matches that string, it will spawn a second window (pretty much identical to its world window) to which it then redirects any incoming text that matches <Public> *.

It seems you can also combine this with another trigger, matching on whichever command you use to speak on <Public>. This automatically takes anything you say that starts with that command (+pub * in this case) and sends it to the spawned window rather than your main world window even when you have the main world window in focus and are typing into the main world's input box.

However, the spawned window does have its own input box as well. I forgot to test if you actually need to use +pub when speaking in the spawned windows input box or not. But whether or not SimpleMU does it, I think it would be ideal if you, when you talk in the spawned window using its input box, don't need to use +pub to speak on <Public> but simply can type in what you want to say with no prefixed command at all. That sure would cut down on miscoms and mispages.

2) The major difference between using the notepad and 'real' spawned windows are: A) The spawned window has the same size limit as a regular world window. B) The spawned window has its own input area, so you can flip to the spawn window and talk there directly. C) The spawned window shows up on the main list of world tabs rather than just on the drop-down list of open worlds/files, making it very easy to flip to them even for those of us who point-and-click. ;)

3) Essentially, they are extra world windows, yes, which can be brought to the front like a normal world window.

4) Yes. I think you should be able to select text from these windows, save them and log them separately from the main world log.

Personally, I do think it would be best to redesign the world toolbar as well if you do decide to do spawned windows, to make them more visible. If you were to go for tabs, you could perhaps have it setup so that spawned windows always group together with their parent window. And you could perhaps make it optional whether spawned windows show up on the world toolbar or not.

Another option (but that one sounds iffier) might be that only world windows become tabs on the world toolbar, and spawns become some kind of submenus to those tabs which you could access by clicking on or hovering over the tab in question. But then it would be harder to show new activity in the spawned windows.

If anything's unclear, I'll give SimplMU a closer look and see if I can explain it better. :)

Btw, the features that SimpleMU removes or cripples until registration appear to be: pause on more, text editor, spell-check and thesaurus and live spell check.


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Posted by Shadowfyr   USA  (1,792 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #28 on Thu 18 Mar 2004 11:54 PM (UTC)
Message
Hmm. Ok, having seen what Linda thinks SimpleMU does, here is my take:

MDI vs. Floating.. Error windows, notepads, etc, etc. etc. All these being MDI is bad design. Often you want them to exist parallel to, but not completely seperate from the world. The problem is that the only way to place both windows on the main MDI frame at the same time is by resizing the main MDI window 'and' the world window, nether of which I want to screw with. This is why I like something like Poromenos' external one better. You can put it anyplace you want and the client doesn't have to be maximized to fit it, so you can stick other stuff in the spare space you my have too. For me this is an optimal situation, since I often have a looping tracert in a DOS window (with a real small font) going on the right side of the screen, I may have SciTE visibly under the client so I can easilly click between the client and editor, etc. Making me maximize the client to fit a new window in it is not going to make me or about 50% of the people that have requested such a feature happy.

Input/Output... I would say that being able to tell the window to use a default option, like always applying bs or say, chatall, etc. is a good idea. By the same token, since this is going to be bound closely to the world, I wouldn't mind seeing parallel displays. What do I mean? Simple, if I 'omit from output', but also 'send to window' I don't want to see plain text in the window, I want to see the original lines in full color. This is the one *major* flaw in any external option anyone ever makes, you have no real means to properly capture the *real* original contents to send if you try to omit it. It makes no sense for an inbuilt window to have this sort of goofy limitation.

As for tabbing... Bit more complicated, but one solution is 'don't use the standard tab system'. Use something more like the button bars in Opera. Each button has an image, text name and a little down array. Hit the down arrow and you get a drop down menu. I am not sure how/if you can add such to a tabbed system, but it would solve the issue of bringing up linked windows, especially since it may be a good idea if going non-MDI on them if they minimized or otherwise hid themselves when their world isn't in focus, at least as a default behaviour. There may be times someone wants to tell the window to remain visible when in another window (which you couldn't do with MDI btw).
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Posted by Dave   Australia  (93 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #29 on Fri 19 Mar 2004 02:10 AM (UTC)
Message
I'm probably dreaming, but something like http://dave.community.net.au/mc-spawnwindows.png would be very, very nice. :)
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